Opener
You've now had a chance to dig well into the Tales of Neveryon, so let's settle down
for some closer analysis. Assuming there are themeboes and images that recur across
the stories you've read so far, I'd like to see which ones strike you as the most
resonant. So reflect on your reading, settling down to specific cases: what images, ideas,
or scenes seem to play through this material and why?
After you've posted your opening salvo, respond to others' as they pop up--what can
you add to their insights?
Joyce Smaragdis:
One of the thembies of this novel became more crystalized for me after reading Marc's
response in the other conference. More specifically, Delany prods the reader to
question exchange value, a monied economy, supply-side economics etc. However, it
doesn't seem as though Delany is offering the same critique of capitalism as Marx was (or
later Marxist theorists for that matter). What I am trying to say is that money
seems to be both beneficial and harmful in these stories. I find myself wondering,
would Delany consider himself a Marxist critique? I get the sense that he would not, but
I am not sure how to categorize him (perhaps I should suppress this impulse anyway).
Nevertheless, I think that Money is one of the main thembes of this collection of
stories. However, he does not consitently argue that money should be done away with.
I think I will post this and wait for some responses. I am flailing.
Jason Michael Tice:
I did not notice the first time homosexuality arose (no pun intended) but when it
became clearer later, I re-read and discovered the first instance as well. I believe
the first part was when the Vizerine decided to keep Gorgik. Jahor, the eunuch,
takes him into HIS tent first as if to give both his sexual opinion of Gorgik as well
as his intellectual opinion. I did'nt see it as such at first, but later, in the
Tale of Small Sarg, Gorgik initiates sexal activity between himself and his new slave,
Sarg. He then goes on to say he can't "function" unless the element of bondage is included.
My ? is this, was Gorgik's sexual orientation ambiguous from the outset , or was
he conditoned by his enslavement? Any ideas?
Bayle:
I was just fascinated by the way in which references to apparently simple events would
continue to chime in the background as I read along. Take for instance the children's
game with the ball: their chant, sung as they bounced the ball higher and higher,
evokes the mythistory of this fictive realm--makes me want to know who Mad Olin was,
why she was warning people, and then why it seems to young Gorgik that the warning
is offered ironically--not to be taken at face value. These little balls turn up
in later tales as signifiers of economic activity--trade, hidden origins, uncertain profits,
and even of desire: people want these little rubber balls.
Or take the three-legged pots, for another example--surely an inconsequential object,
but as we watch their deployment, they start to gain increasing significance.
All of this is to ignore more insistent and obvious symbolic objects like the slave
collar, sign of economic, sexual, emotional, and power dynamics all at once. I found
it fascinating to consider this thing as in some respects both beautiful and ugly,
both opening and constraining, both enabling and marginalizing. . .
Marc C. Hutcheson:
Delany seems to be making a political statement on page 170 near the bottom,
starting with "I heard...that a man approached Her Highness not a month back with
a scheme for making money out of vellum". I get the impression that Delany agrees
with those American political figures back in the early 19th century who thought it an absurd
idea to make money out of paper. They thought the result would be worthless and
look at inflation now. Those during the depression, however, did not think it so
worthless because it was good for heating their homes in the fireplace.
Anyway, that was just a little tidbit. On to other things. I would like to
know how the story of the creation of man in the Tale of Potters and Dragons has
a healing and soothing effect on men in Raven's world. Perhaps because there they
are more open minded and accepting of gender issues. Often what makes people angry is what
they most fear to be true. Therefore the unwillingness to accept the inevitable
creates tensions and sore tempers. Whether or not one believes the creation story
in the tale or in The Bible is another matter and will not be discussed here. However, Delany
does raise some interesting ideas foe speculation.
Bayle:
Joyce: how would you see Marx as disagreeing with Delany, then? Was Marx against
money?
Jenn Lindberg:
Some of the 'Thembies' I am drawing into my grasp are those issues dealing with gender
relations, sexuality and the emergence of sexuality, social class and moderism.
The first scene that caught my attention was with Gorgik and the Barbarian prince.
Gorgik had risen to be a mad of some stature, raised above the time from which he
was the Vizerine's play toy. When I began reading the sale scene of Smarg, I assumed
that Gorgik bought the young boy out of pity, and an inward resonation of "Hey...that used
to be me." I was...shocked? at the sexual scene that followed. It got me thinking.
Here Delany begins exploring sexuality. It is interesting that this older man starts
a slave, becomes a male concubine, and returns to find sexual fulfillment with a young
boy. The words spoken by Smarg rings out how the traditional sexual relations are
seen : "But that's silly. You're a man. That is what boys do, away from the village
in huts, off in the forest. You become a man, you take a woman and you do it in your house
with her. You don't do it with boys in the woods anymore." (page 153)
The second resonation was Raven's creation myth. In many ways she reminds me of Janet
- or even Jael. She breaks away from the 'traditional' gender roles of woman as person
in kitchen, and man as hunter. The Tale of Old Venn reflects much of this, with the mirror analogy.
Bayle:
Marc: would you say that "delany" is making this political claim or the speaker who
reports this event? someone else? Why??
And then there's the matter of the effect of the myth in Raven's culture; who says
it's got a healing/soothing effect? And then why assume the men of her culture are
more accpting (um, than whom?) of gender roles??
Amanda Kathleen Pedersen:
I've been noticing the recurring image of the crazy person. If I remeber correctly,
there's a crazy person in every tale. Noyeed (I would assume he's gone quite mad,
by now) appears in Gorgik's tale. That image is so strong that it spans tales and
gives Gorgik a bad dream in the Tale of Small Sarg. In the Tale of Old Venn, she describes
a Rulvyn hunter who goes mad (slowly), and who is killed by his wives, who then slit
the throats of their children and themselves. Norema encounters Mad Marga a couple
of times in the same tale. And in the Tale of Small Sarg, Sarg recounts the stoning
of Crazy Nargit. And when he becomes enslaved, he talks about Nargit. Why are there
crazy people in all of the tales? Surely, they add to the dark tone of the novel.
And, they say something about the capability of the main characters to have emotions
about these people. In other wrods, some of the characters are affected by the crazy
people - especially Gorgik and Sarg.
Ash Downs:
In the Tale of Old Venn, when Venn is with the local children, she engages in post-modernist
thought. She has the children look in the mirror's placed on the boys' stomachs,
to see the differing reflections caused by different perspectives. The images of mirrors are used to show that any given perspective is just that, only one perspective.
We went over this in class when discussing the role of point of view and voice
in The Female Man. Wasn't the idea of mirrors used to define ourselves part of the
concept of immanences. The mirror seems to be a particularly post-modern symbol of
questioning and reflecting. Too simplistic? It seems that until we look into a
reflection of our assumptions, we can't challenge what we thought we knew.
Jenn Lindberg:
Jason :Interesting question. I don't know if there can be any direct answer to it.
Could someone help me out with where exactly Gorgik is from? It might be interesting
to look at that factor also.
Marc C. Hutcheson:
Jason,
One idea that I had was that the Vizerine didn't satisfy Gorgik and Jahor somehow
did, so therefore his preference switched to men. Also, in the Tale of Gorgik, notice
how he was so awestruck (good adjective?) by the slave boy in the courtyard.
Bayle:
Fascinatin' questions, Amanda. . . does craziness mean just a refusal of the local
culture's mores?
Bayle:
Jason and Jennifer: why assume that the eunuch has sexual relations or even sexual
feelings toward Gorgik or vice versa? where's the evidence for this possibility?
Jason Michael Tice:
Joyce: I don't know if Delany can be categorized either, but I noticed the inconsistencies
of the portrayal of money as well. The most interesting part to me was in the Tale
of Potters and Dragons when Norema recalls a conversation with Madame Keyne (pp170-171) in which she talks about the way money seperates people. sorry if this was
a useless comment
Jenn Lindberg:
Marc : You can see similiar creation myths within other cultures. None have the ripping
out of women's genatalia to create male genetalia, however.=-) Perhaps it is comforting
to men because it links them with women. Women are the dominant sex in Raven's regent. They seem to be what a 17th century man was to woman -- dominant in *all*
aspects, with the men being a taking away from women.
Ash Downs:
The way sexuality is dealt with in Delany's writings seems to parallel all the possibilities
of age and gender conflicts still running rampant.
Lauren Moore:
Jenn: "TRaditional" sexual relations?????We (the entire class) has gotta get away
from seeing this as trad'l, it's untrue (I hope?) and a bit harmful.
Jason Michael Tice:
Bayle , good question, I thought Eunuchs were asexual too until this . more later.
Amanda Kathleen Pedersen:
Jason:
In the last exchange (about the term project), I had begun to explain the reason why
I though that Gorgik seems to choose boys. I mean, as far as I can remember, I think
the only sexual encounter with a woman is the one he had with Myrgot. It seemed
to me that the sexual encounter between Gorgik and Sarg seemed to have more compassion
that the one between Myrgot and Gorgik. Perhaps because these two men have so much
in common. There seems to be a bond between them.
Joyce Smaragdis:
Bayle,
I agree with you completely. I found Delany's text to be recursive, and these stories
force the reader to go back to (and reread) snippets of earlier tales that suddenly
become significant, important. The center of the stories is slippery (at least I
can't pin them down). Delany stories exemplify, in a tanglible way, some of the tenets
of post-modern theory (at least as defined by Hassan).
In regards to Marx, I would argue that for Marx, money was one of the insidious ways
in which the bourgeusie (sp?) alienated the proletariat from their labor....class
is over I must go.